I enjoyed this. Do you see this risk-taking behavior and the ensuing crashes trickling down to sport drivers and their track days? Or do the high costs of maintaining and repairing their cars help them stay within safer limits? (I know they do for me.)
I don’t know about it trickling down to track/sport drivers - I don’t think so - but it does seem to be in amateur/club racing. When it becomes wheel to wheel competition, drivers do what they see pro drivers do. Sure, most make good decisions - some driven by financial concerns - but some are not taking in the big picture.
Thank you thank you thank you!! I was at Sebring in turn 5. The loss of those fantastic machines brought tears to my eyes. I love that driver injury and fatalities are greatly reduced. Track limits should be followed and penalties should be given. The lack of respect for one another and our property is growing. Great article.
The most entertaining part of racing for me is watching the drivers swap leads while battling each other - usually the mid-pack action, and not so much at the front. The occasional banzai passing moves leave me shaking my head - it surely can't be their own car, so how they keep their jobs is a mystery no matter how talented.
Agreed. Great battles are what we enjoy the most in racing. When you say “occasional,” I think that’s okay. But when it’s happening more than occasionally, that’s when it becomes a problem.
I don't know much about racing, but I've fallen into the F1 crashes rabbit hole a little bit and I was wondering why there were so many crashes now (looking at the Halo safety device) and this article is interesting. I agree with some points and disagree with some, but I probably don't even know enough to matter. I might use this for an ethos, pathos, and logos essay I have to write haha
Good stuff, Ross! It sure [sadly] seems the art of a clean pass is a dying art. And, unfortunately the bonsai example/s seen all-to-often these days in the pro ranks, has trickled down into the amateur/sportsman ranks; where we (I at least) can ill afford the consequences. #bringbacktheartofacleanpass
Nothing more I love than to gauge a competitor, setup, then make, a clean pass! And yeah, agreed... So, please, let's share it, in hopes of seeing some change come. ;)
You might be feeling the effects of a generation of drivers from karting, who had to become very comfortable with contact.
Even with the drop down bumpers we have, karters still experience lots of contact driving, which I assume they take with them to their car racing exploits.
Not so much the habit of contactt driving, but their comfort with it... They aren't afraid of it.
In kart racing they have push-back bumpers in some of the series. Although the penalty is applied if it's your fault or not, sometimes with video footage of the ENTIRE race will remove the penalty, but 99% of the time, it's applied. For the most part, the time differences between all the drivers is not that much, 5-seconds could be a huge penalty. What if they applied those penalties the same with higher tiered motorsports but make the penalty a bigger time gap? Need to change a front wing, your fault or not, then apply a 30-second time penalty. I know it's an extreme case but does it start to get in the driver's heads that they can't just send it and hope for the best or does it change the racing dynamic too much and drivers become overly hesitant on making a pass while your competitors behind you are catching up? The idea of issuing or controlling parts to "break" easier, could be helpful but does that put some liability on the sanctioning body if there's a defect with those parts? It's got to be so hard to come up with a solution to this problem because for decades, the focus has been on safety, which not many will argue to reduce that.
I think some of the aero bits on the front of most cars could be more fragile and breakable (so there would be a big penalty if a driver knocked them by being too aggressive when passing) without taking any of the safety of the car away. I like the way karting does this.
I recently wrote an article on this topic for our club magazine after witnessing the crash fest of the 12 Hours of Sebring. Thanks for sharing your insights. Breakable front aero pieces is a great idea! The 13/13 rule worked well when I was racing with HSR. I guess this is too sever for drivers and teams trying to make a living in this sport. Thanks again!
I haven’t seen your article, Tom, but the more we share this message that what we’re seeing is not right, the more likely it is we can make an impact. Thanks!
May 21, 2023·edited May 21, 2023Liked by Ross Bentley
I think NASCAR in particular is guilty of engineering big wrecks. Green-white-checkered among other rules encourage that kind of racing.
And it does seem to trickle down. I brought some friends to an endurance kart race designed for all skill levels (including complete racing noobs) this weekend. They were of course off pace of the faster guys and very frustrated to feel like they were being used as bumpers to help them get around the track.
Yes, the biggest problem is that it does trickle down to other forms of our sport. Hopefully it will reverse and the grassroots levels will set an example for the pros!
This article reminded me again why I race with organizations that have 13/13 rules; e.g. Vintage, BMW, etc. While the passing car has primary responsibility for a clean pass, the over taken car shares some of that responsibility. Contact penalties of some sort usually go to both drivers.
Agreed. It does take two to tangle. And I’m not suggesting that the driver being passed just needs to move over and let everyone by. Far from it. But there’s a way to race close, tough, and fair.
I say often the track limit violations don't result in great enough penalties. Safely designed tracks are intended to preserve life, not facilitate extreme risk taking with no repercussions. I also grouse that lap time track records creep down because tracks keep adding tarmac and drivers use every bit of new pavement.
In club racing I'm led to believe the green to checker initative is intended to address the rising level of dangerous driving and more ferquent crashes. It appears anytime a chief steward has to take action as a result of crash, everybody involved gets at least one point, that way the data can help discover the frequent crasher(s) and reveal the usual suspects across region and national lines.
Yes, I get that it’s a difficult balance between making safer tracks and taking the challenge away by making it wider and wider. To be honest, I don’t have the answer! But the more we talk about, the more likely smarter people than me will come up with some solutions.
A great article Ross, and very much worth discussing in our Spec Miata class, where we have so many talented newcomers arriving from karting, hoping to follow Connor Zillich's success, make a name for themselves and hopefully get a pro-drive. The pack is so tight now, and the competition so fierce, that just a tiny mistake by anyone can result in many cars getting caught up in the mess.
Good point!
I enjoyed this. Do you see this risk-taking behavior and the ensuing crashes trickling down to sport drivers and their track days? Or do the high costs of maintaining and repairing their cars help them stay within safer limits? (I know they do for me.)
By the way, Tom, I love your Out Over My Skis Substack. Great writing, makes me think and learn, and entertaining. Thanks!
Hey, thanks so much Ross, I appreciate it.
I don’t know about it trickling down to track/sport drivers - I don’t think so - but it does seem to be in amateur/club racing. When it becomes wheel to wheel competition, drivers do what they see pro drivers do. Sure, most make good decisions - some driven by financial concerns - but some are not taking in the big picture.
Thank you thank you thank you!! I was at Sebring in turn 5. The loss of those fantastic machines brought tears to my eyes. I love that driver injury and fatalities are greatly reduced. Track limits should be followed and penalties should be given. The lack of respect for one another and our property is growing. Great article.
Agreed!
Loved this. Behavior will change through reasonable fair consequences
Well said my friend. You are certainly on to something here.
The most entertaining part of racing for me is watching the drivers swap leads while battling each other - usually the mid-pack action, and not so much at the front. The occasional banzai passing moves leave me shaking my head - it surely can't be their own car, so how they keep their jobs is a mystery no matter how talented.
Agreed. Great battles are what we enjoy the most in racing. When you say “occasional,” I think that’s okay. But when it’s happening more than occasionally, that’s when it becomes a problem.
I don't know much about racing, but I've fallen into the F1 crashes rabbit hole a little bit and I was wondering why there were so many crashes now (looking at the Halo safety device) and this article is interesting. I agree with some points and disagree with some, but I probably don't even know enough to matter. I might use this for an ethos, pathos, and logos essay I have to write haha
Good stuff, Ross! It sure [sadly] seems the art of a clean pass is a dying art. And, unfortunately the bonsai example/s seen all-to-often these days in the pro ranks, has trickled down into the amateur/sportsman ranks; where we (I at least) can ill afford the consequences. #bringbacktheartofacleanpass
I love the #bringbacktheartofacleanpass. If we all start sharing that, maybe we can see some change!!
Nothing more I love than to gauge a competitor, setup, then make, a clean pass! And yeah, agreed... So, please, let's share it, in hopes of seeing some change come. ;)
#bringbacktheartofacleanpass
You might be feeling the effects of a generation of drivers from karting, who had to become very comfortable with contact.
Even with the drop down bumpers we have, karters still experience lots of contact driving, which I assume they take with them to their car racing exploits.
Not so much the habit of contactt driving, but their comfort with it... They aren't afraid of it.
In kart racing they have push-back bumpers in some of the series. Although the penalty is applied if it's your fault or not, sometimes with video footage of the ENTIRE race will remove the penalty, but 99% of the time, it's applied. For the most part, the time differences between all the drivers is not that much, 5-seconds could be a huge penalty. What if they applied those penalties the same with higher tiered motorsports but make the penalty a bigger time gap? Need to change a front wing, your fault or not, then apply a 30-second time penalty. I know it's an extreme case but does it start to get in the driver's heads that they can't just send it and hope for the best or does it change the racing dynamic too much and drivers become overly hesitant on making a pass while your competitors behind you are catching up? The idea of issuing or controlling parts to "break" easier, could be helpful but does that put some liability on the sanctioning body if there's a defect with those parts? It's got to be so hard to come up with a solution to this problem because for decades, the focus has been on safety, which not many will argue to reduce that.
I think some of the aero bits on the front of most cars could be more fragile and breakable (so there would be a big penalty if a driver knocked them by being too aggressive when passing) without taking any of the safety of the car away. I like the way karting does this.
I recently wrote an article on this topic for our club magazine after witnessing the crash fest of the 12 Hours of Sebring. Thanks for sharing your insights. Breakable front aero pieces is a great idea! The 13/13 rule worked well when I was racing with HSR. I guess this is too sever for drivers and teams trying to make a living in this sport. Thanks again!
I haven’t seen your article, Tom, but the more we share this message that what we’re seeing is not right, the more likely it is we can make an impact. Thanks!
I think NASCAR in particular is guilty of engineering big wrecks. Green-white-checkered among other rules encourage that kind of racing.
And it does seem to trickle down. I brought some friends to an endurance kart race designed for all skill levels (including complete racing noobs) this weekend. They were of course off pace of the faster guys and very frustrated to feel like they were being used as bumpers to help them get around the track.
Yes, the biggest problem is that it does trickle down to other forms of our sport. Hopefully it will reverse and the grassroots levels will set an example for the pros!
This article reminded me again why I race with organizations that have 13/13 rules; e.g. Vintage, BMW, etc. While the passing car has primary responsibility for a clean pass, the over taken car shares some of that responsibility. Contact penalties of some sort usually go to both drivers.
Agreed. It does take two to tangle. And I’m not suggesting that the driver being passed just needs to move over and let everyone by. Far from it. But there’s a way to race close, tough, and fair.
I say often the track limit violations don't result in great enough penalties. Safely designed tracks are intended to preserve life, not facilitate extreme risk taking with no repercussions. I also grouse that lap time track records creep down because tracks keep adding tarmac and drivers use every bit of new pavement.
In club racing I'm led to believe the green to checker initative is intended to address the rising level of dangerous driving and more ferquent crashes. It appears anytime a chief steward has to take action as a result of crash, everybody involved gets at least one point, that way the data can help discover the frequent crasher(s) and reveal the usual suspects across region and national lines.
Yes, I get that it’s a difficult balance between making safer tracks and taking the challenge away by making it wider and wider. To be honest, I don’t have the answer! But the more we talk about, the more likely smarter people than me will come up with some solutions.
Ross, your 3 summative proposals in the last sentence say it all.
Jim
I learned everything I know about racing from my first coach when I first started racing. Hey, that was you!
A great article Ross, and very much worth discussing in our Spec Miata class, where we have so many talented newcomers arriving from karting, hoping to follow Connor Zillich's success, make a name for themselves and hopefully get a pro-drive. The pack is so tight now, and the competition so fierce, that just a tiny mistake by anyone can result in many cars getting caught up in the mess.
When a SM or MX5 race goes green the whole time, there is not a better race in motorsport...